Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Hello and welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. This is Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. Let’s talk about social justice definition. So we say social justice is the view that everyone deserves equal economic, political, social rights, and opportunities. The aim is to open doors of access and opportunity for everyone, particularly to those in greatest needs. So when we think of social justice, it contains all of the following, equal rights, equal opportunity, equal treatment. Our conversation today is with Colleen Kirtland, someone that I hold a great deal of respect and admiration for because of the good work she’s doing with helping underestimated kids increase the skills, their skills in education. I’ve served with Colleen in the 5 Saturdays STEAM program. We say STEAM because A is for agile, and I say welcome, Colleen. So why don’t you take about a minute or more and do an elevator pitch about Colleen and your superhero persona?
Colleen Kirtland:
Oh, my goodness. That’s going to involve some creativity on a Friday here. Well, my name is Colleen Kirtland, and it’s a great pleasure to be here today with you, Dr. Dave. If I were to describe myself and we all have superpowers, I think the ones that I would choose that would stand out might be akin to almost like a super power butterfly. And what I mean by that, so the butterfly metaphor comes up in a lot of different cultural mythologies and other things, but I think the metamorphosis aspect is really important because we’re always changing, right? We may be the very same being from the caterpillar all the way to the butterfly, however, we’re changing and we’re going through this evolution, and it’s biological, it takes time. And it’s a cycle, it’s a cycle of life. It’s a natural cycle. So I think that would be it. I don’t know if there’s a butterfly superhero, like wonder butterfly or something, but I’m going to go ahead and go with butterfly.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Oh, I love the metaphor. I love it. And so it’s an original and we’re going to keep it and we’re claiming that, right?
Colleen Kirtland:
Okay. Yeah. We’ll figure out some name of like Super Monarch or something. I don’t know.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
What a wonderful name, Super Monarch. There you go. So let’s talk about social justice challenges, and how has that shown up in your work, community, and family?
Colleen Kirtland:
Okay. So this question, I’m very glad you sent me questions in advance. I actually thought I’d take a different spin on this. So you say, “How is it showing up in my work and community and family?” And what’s really interesting, and what made me actually think about a missing component of social justice, is that if I take the typical circle I walk in, it is not showing up. And I think this is a really salient point about having the courage to travel outside of our comfort zone to find places where there is a need for social justice. So, ironically, I was talking to my husband, I’d say two nights ago, and I don’t mean this to be of any disrespect to any of your listeners or anybody who subscribes to this podcast.
But I was saying I sometimes feel I’m equally as privileged as a white male. And I take this seriously and I have nothing against white males, I’m married to a wonderful white male. And I think it goes beyond just the color of your skin and your gender. It goes into the aspects of where we have access and we have opportunity in our lives. And I was very lucky. I grew up with a very loving family and, although we didn’t have tons of money, we had tons of love and tons of educational opportunities. So my father was, and he still is a physicist, but he’s now a retired physics professor. And he was and still is my model for education as a way to foster this tremendous love for learning, right? And I think that, going back to your question, what’s really important is that if I didn’t take journeys outside of my comfort circle, I actually wouldn’t see social justice and opportunities for it. And I think that’s just a marker of how privileged I am and a reminder that I need to actually explicitly seek out places where social justice is needed.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Well, that’s the Super Monarch butterfly that’s spreading its wing outside of your comfort zone, which is amazing. You are a well-established, oh, you are an executive but a well-established company. So what is your view on corporate responsibility when you talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, and my favorite, belonging?
Colleen Kirtland:
Oh, my gosh, you just hit on so many wonderful words. And I have to say, right now, I’m at an awesome company that very much values diversity, equity, and inclusion. And it’s been stated from the top down that this is important and it is a part of fabrics that we’re working on, right? And what’s so interesting, again, and this is nothing against my company, is I look again at that social context and I ask myself, what does it take to even join my company in the first place? A lot of times it’s a college education, it’s certain skills that are hard to acquire and ones in which you might not have a wide range of exposure. And so companies may have the most positive intent to actually increase the breadth of their diversity, equity, and inclusion, but actually maybe limit it a little bit. And so I’d be really curious about other companies that are experimenting with, if there’s any out there, that are experimenting with truly going to places we don’t go to hire.
And I’ve talked with some folks, and there are some really great DEI programs. I actually heard about one that a giant software company is running, one that everybody knows about. And I heard about it through a friend of mine, [Laurina Gualar 00:06:54], you know her. And she knows the executive of that company, and they actually are going to establish workplaces that don’t force people to centralize to the city that they’re located in, but they actually are going outside even the US territory to say, “We’re going to establish a local version of the skills and aptitudes necessary for this company to thrive.” And so that’s just one example that comes to mind of how far this needs to be taken because of the way in which even the best positive intent may or may not be realized due to the fact that, systemically, the people who even end up on your way are already very, very abundant in their skills and very privileged. So I think yeah, I think corporate responsibility for this, it’s going to take that curiosity, that butterfly nature to fly outside of the company’s comfort zone as well.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
That’s beautiful. So I’m going to ask you a little tougher question.
Colleen Kirtland:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
So do you have an Asian or Pacific Islander social justice experience that you could share with us?
Colleen Kirtland:
Social justice? You mean a personal one to me? Or…
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yeah, personal. And even if it’s not personal, it could be someone that you know, someone that’s close to you.
Colleen Kirtland:
I can share. Luckily nothing has transpired, but if I can bring us back to that place before the current election and the, I don’t want to get political, that’s not my intent. But I’ll just say that very, very prominent political leaders called our current COVID situation the Wuhan Virus, and that led to actual situations with Asian and Pacific Islander people all over the country actually getting attacked, right? There were some attacks in New York and then my family lives in San Francisco. And wow, there was a lot of stuff with elderly people. And there was concern in the community and I was also concerned for my parents and my family over that.
And so that’s one thing that really hit home is that it’s kind of funny to be completely honest. When I look at myself in the mirror, I’m just Colleen. And then I suddenly remember I have this other identity because of the way I look and my genetic heritage that is Chinese. And I suddenly actually felt a little scared during that period of going out and being much more careful about being alone. I mean, I’m generally careful anyway about that, but the heightened awareness of the need to be careful was something new to me and something that I really realized I’m going to continue to do my part
Colleen Kirtland:
To exercise my democracy and voice through voting, through social activism, because that’s where the change has really happened. I mean, I don’t like going and just preaching to people. I like going to make the change. And so it’s like, “Well, if I’m feeling scared, the first thing is don’t cower to it. And also don’t be stupid.” So I wasn’t going to do something that put myself in danger, but I’m also very, very aware of, I’ll say my Chinese identity. It’s going to become more and more of a challenge, I think, because not only did we get set off on the wrong foot by the COVID virus being declared as something to blame China on, but also when I look at the power politics now between the US and China, that worries me. I have a lot of family history with that.
My parents were originally born in China and fled to Taiwan during the communist takeover in 1949, and then came to this country in the ’50s where they began their life in the US. And with that history, I’ll mention a couple things, which is I don’t care what dictatorship labels itself as. Dictatorship can come from the extreme right and the extreme left. And this one story that my dad told me when the January 6 capital massacre occurred, he said, “Wow. So I never thought this would happen in the United States. And I’m very bothered that the forces on the extreme right actually look very similar to the forces on the extreme left that we were running from in China in 1949.” And I said, “Well, Dad, what are the similarities?” And he said, “Well, first of all, every dictatorship wants to shut down the voices of truth and science and reason.”
And I said, “Well, that’s really powerful,” because he remembers some of my actually direct relatives after the fortunate ones went to Taiwan. Because they were educated people, teachers and doctors and other things, they were actually sent to the countryside by the communist regime and actually sent to work camps because they were considered threatening because they wanted to speak the truth. And so I think that was just so many awesome experiences during COVID is that conversation with my dad around the face of dictatorship may look different, but the soul doesn’t. And I think that to me, those are just some of the touch points that I really treasure now thinking about that. And I’ve always thought the same way is that the extremes of anything could end up looking identically evil.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
No doubt. Without a doubt. That’s for sure. I can totally concur with that. So if you had to choose a practice to coach someone through like belonging, healing, and trauma… And if you notice, I inverted it. Start with belonging, healing and trauma… Who’s dealing with social justice challenges, what practice would that be?
Colleen Kirtland:
I love that you start with belonging because the belonging and the healing, I think fundamentally if we try to change things on the outside of ourselves first, we always fail because the healing actually, I think, starts with ourselves. And I don’t know what other people’s truths are, but in my own practices of self-healing and self-caring, that’s a nucleus of the values that I espouse in practice so that then I have enough energy to give to others that same thing. So I don’t consider it as any kind of… I guess I consider it as a kind of… It’s a kind of way in which we show up in the world and by doing that, it’s additive healing because we really can’t heal other people. I think that’s one of the myths out there is it’s not about changing the others. It’s about changing self.
And as we change self, we add to the healing in this world. And sometimes, people, when they see someone else in a good state and in a good mindset with an open heart and genuine concern, that in itself is the escalating. And it doesn’t mean that we don’t bring out the really bold person. Sometimes, I’ll say in nature, a mother protects her young, whether it’s a human mother and animal mother, and that’s out of this concern for survival. It’s something that’s out of concern, and it’s a natural instinct. So I’m not saying that we are always soft with people. Sometimes we have to put our foot down so that our little light can continue to shine because you don’t want somebody to take that light away from you or something that will diminish the individual power of healing we can each bring into the community.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
So what a wonderful essence of healing that you bring and you show up with all the time. Talk to me about a few actions that you’re taking personally to improve opportunities for black indigenous and people of color, BIPOC, in the Agile community. I know you are.
Colleen Kirtland:
Does it have to be limited to the Agile community? Are we talking communities in general?
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
No. So the community in general. How’s that?
Colleen Kirtland:
But I will say first, since this is an Agile podcast, what’s really interesting too is a lot of practitioners in the Agile community, again, have that positive intent. And we have to also recognize where those people come from. They had the advantages to gain those skills and gain that knowledge. And it comes from your educational background, the companies you were in, the opportunities you’ve had. So in that sense, I wasn’t there at the last in-person scrum alliance meeting. But my friends who were told me that there was some serious dialogue around the lack of diversity. And I have to say that I would fundamentally agree with that and that we have to keep working hard, not just asking about the dimension of the color of your skin, but let’s look at other elements of diversity that come through forms of our history, our ancestry, our upbringing.
I mean, these are all things where would we be willing to populate our community with voices that are different from ours. I mean, a lot of us Agilists like to be together because we hold a lot in common. And now the question is, who else is welcome? And I remember this one conversation actually, and I won’t name names because I don’t want it to get sensitive, but I read this one book by a pretty well-known clean code person one time. And I wasn’t aware that this person apparently had really, really offended a lot of people in the Agile community. And I posted on LinkedIn, “Hey, this seems like a good book.” And I got a flurry of texts saying, “Oh my gosh. You have no idea what you just did,” and blah, blah, blah.
Wow. I actually, in that case, I didn’t realize it. I did pull that post down not because I’m afraid of saying things, but I didn’t want to represent that voice as it was perceived through others. Now I will still say I’ve never met that individual in person. So in my heart, they still have every chance in the world. But clearly, the people around me had had so many traumatic experiences with that person that I was like, “Well, I don’t want to create more of that trauma,” but it did make me curious because there were political overtones in it and which direction that person leaned. And granted, I myself didn’t hold those beliefs either. My question is it brought up that whole polarity we have in our country now about that different other. And the second we identify that different other and don’t talk to it, we actually create more negativity, more division, and less healing.
And so I took that as, well, I hear my Agile community. I support them. And I want to learn more because this is the conversation we should be involved in. Is that other person, how did they get that way? And what is it they’re trying to predict? And what is in their value system makes them believe what they do, and try to take the judgment off the table a little bit. So that made me aware that everywhere, there’s a lot of work to do to explore it. And the people that gave me that feedback, I completely trust them. I admire them. They’re colleagues of mine. But it was a lesson about, wow, I guess there are some people that have been ostracized that I wasn’t aware of. And I’m hoping that through some kind of connection, maybe one day we can find new openings with those people and maybe start afresh.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Well, maybe you could invite them to your cooking experiment that you did. I love that. Open dialogue while we’re making a meal. I thought that was just such a beautiful experiment that you did.
Colleen Kirtland:
Perhaps we can. Yeah.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yeah. So let’s talk about some significant change you would like to see to support BIPOC and non BIPOC integration in the Agile community and beyond, since I know you’re beyond the agile community as well so let’s look at it from those lenses.
Colleen Kirtland:
Let me think about that. So how would I support more integration? Is that the question?
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yeah. More connection, more interactions.
Colleen Kirtland:
That’s really interesting. Maybe if you could help me a little, Dave, can you answer for those who might listen to your podcast where we perceive need around that? What are some of the prominent voices you’ve heard where we’re saying that we’re not integrating well enough. And you don’t have to name their names, I’m just trying to get the themes of what the concern is.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
This is observation and experience. It’s not what anyone else is saying. If you’re not aware that it’s happening and everyone else who is similar to you and you’re spending most of your interactive time with those individuals, well, then you’re not including everyone else. And I think you spoke to that earlier in the conversation. So it’s just a matter of observation. You and I go to lots of conferences and show up at a lot of meetups. And the thing is is how open is that door and inclusive of everyone in that space, right? And how hard does a BIPOC person have to work to integrate and interact in that space? So this is where I’m coming from and this is just from experience. You don’t hear a lot of voices talking about this, right? Because it’s too controversial.
Colleen Kirtland:
No, and I’d like to hear more. Yeah. And I think we got to lean in a little to this controversy in a positive way that creates a productive forward path. And you mentioned something about hard work and almost this notion of needing to work harder to get noticed and stuff. And so if we’re talking about greater integration and inclusion, I think maybe considering mentorships and ways of bringing people into circles, right? Because in other words, if people are on the “in circle” they got to work harder to bring others who aren’t in who have that interest.
And maybe there’s some practical things that we’re just not aware of. Like who out there in the BIPOC community is interested in, say the Agile community, but doesn’t feel welcome and is scared to break the ice. If we knew who those were, if we had the knowledge of that, maybe we could actually do the outreach. And I think maybe part of it is because you mentioned this whole thing is controversial. It is controversial and perhaps there isn’t enough information on how to help and who to help, for the people who even with… They have good intentions on the inside of the circle, they really can’t help unless we start to get specific around who needs to help, and who are the voices out there that are feeling suppressed or actually getting suppressed, right?
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yeah. Well, and that’s why we’re having this conversation because there isn’t a lot of discussion around that. And so can we bring more awareness through this dialogue that there is a need. Whether it’s people are aware or not, when you look around and you see there isn’t enough diversity in the process, right? And it’s not just about BIPOC people this also include women as part of that conversation. So what steps are people taking? I know what steps I take. I know I go out of my way to make sure there’s inclusion in everything that I do, right? That there’s diversity in voices and experience in everything that I do, because that’s my level of awareness and that’s my responsibility. The question is how do we get everyone else to take on that lens because we have different experiences, right?
Colleen Kirtland:
Yeah, I think it’s a very wonderful thing to not only discuss and create more awareness, we also really owe it to people to walk in their shoes. And I would say to the best that we can. I mean, in my experience with… So I can mention JOYA Scholars they’re a nonprofit. So I volunteer as a mentor for JOYA Scholars and I’m really excited because I’ve taken now, this’ll be my third young lady from ninth grade all the way through high school. And as long as they want to be in the program I’m there for them. But each one of them comes with a different gift. And the funny thing is, somebody can come with this intent of let’s just say, I want to be in the Agile community or in this case with JOYA, I want to be in college.
And yet as we discover and open up spaces we realize, hey, they really don’t want to be in college. They really want to go to the police academy, which my last… We discovered actually that my last mentee did not want to go to college, and yet she was in this college program. And I think it’s really important that we listen. Sometimes people really just need an ear and some reassurance that somebody will hear the direction they really want. And then my mentee before that, so I’ve been with JOYA now for multiple years through two high school, beautiful young ladies and not one has gone to college yet. But it doesn’t matter because what we created there was, what was the passion and what they wanted to do. So my first young lady, I think became a hairdresser which I thought was fantastic.
School was not her cup of tea. And I need my hair cut all the time.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yep.
Colleen Kirtland:
And then my second one I knew from day one when she did her vision board that she wasn’t going to be liking college. She was very athletic, really into very intense and active kinds of jobs when we did career investigations. It would be military, police and I think recently, even though she’s graduated from the program, she did send me a text and it looks like she’s going to want to be an EMT. That’s her actual [inaudible 00:26:38] and that also is right in that space of that super active, present, intense job. And I’m totally behind her, I hope she makes it through that program. But I knew that day one when she came in and did her vision board that college probably wasn’t going to be her cup of tea, right?
And so I think just allowing space for people to have dreams, and then what’s the dreams pivot? That’s really, really important. And I’ll leave this particular question on a really inspiring note. I just get so energized by all these wonderful youth that I get to interact with. This young lady who I just met this week because it was the start of the school year. So her energy is completely different and wonderful. So we started the year with a vision board and they’re in the room cutting out magazine pictures and other things. And so she started with a picture of Yosemite and flowers because she really likes nature. And I said, “That is phenomenal. I do too, we’ll have a lot in common. We can talk about our love for the outdoors”, and then she held up something in Spanish.
I actually posted this on LinkedIn. She held up something in Spanish, I don’t know how to pronounce it. And I said, “What’s that?” And she said, “Latinas need to have a voice. This says that Latinas should have a voice.” So she found that in the magazine and cut it out. And I said, “Wow. This young lady, I don’t know what she’s going to be but she definitely, if she has academic skills will do great wherever she goes.” But the fact that we have so much courage about having a voice is very inspiring to me, because it shows that somebody wants a different reality for themselves and that they have the power and the desire to bring that at such a young age, ninth grade, to identify that. So that’s maybe a little bit around ways to integrate is that’s my little story about how I love integrating with those kids.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
No, I love it. And it’s one of the things that I really love about the work that you’re doing with JOYA Scholars, and your outreach beyond the Agile community, those are wonderful things. I want to talk about utopia. And if I asked you what would diversity equity and inclusion look like for you in a utopic world? What is your story along those lines?
Colleen Kirtland:
I actually think utopia is something we shouldn’t shoot for. And it’s not because I don’t believe in betterment it’s because the word utopia itself, for me at least, conjures up this notion of a static permanent (singing), we’re there, right?
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
What? (singing).
Colleen Kirtland:
That was the clouds parting or whatever. But that kind of way of seeing destination as a fixed state, always has not sat as well with me. I think if you want to look at utopia for me,
Colleen Kirtland:
Me it’s the space where we can continuously explore and it never is static and it always is changing. There are surprises, there are unexpected things. And around that is what we co-create together is that, that state of what we hold at state to be the most important one, because through holding this state, we become very curious about each other, about the world. We all acknowledge that we each only have a piece of wisdom and a piece of knowledge. And we’re also always dynamically changing as we come in into, as we interact with different people, as new knowledge comes to us, as we change as we evolve. And so utopia for me is that continuous state and space for possibilities.
So I think with DEI, who knows what in the future? I mean, today we talk about socioeconomic justice. We talk about skin color, but whatever it is, we’re always needing to be aware of diversity and inclusion. I think because we’re always needing to reintegrate with ourselves and you know, I guess some of the philosophies and teachings I read, talk about non-dualism, which there is no such thing as self and other, right. I mean, there’s not self another it’s we belong to something bigger and we have our independent thinking and we have some degree of autonomy for sure. It’s tremendous power. And if we don’t also recognize that we belong to something bigger, then I don’t see what we’re here for. Right, I mean, if you look at something biological, like COVID that completely interconnects us involuntarily in these ways, it becomes powerful because what you really see all human beings now as a vector for transmission, right. That’s what we’ve really become. So we are connected and therefore my decisions and my responsibility and care have to increase so that I can protect the vector and everybody in it. Right? So that’s at least how I see things from that point of view.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
No, that that was powerful. I really enjoy your perspective on that, but in closing any final words you want to leave or, drops of wisdom that you want to leave our listeners with today?
Colleen Kirtland:
I don’t think I have much wisdom, but I certainly have a lot of genuine hope for the future and that possibility for change. I know it seems really dark right now in a lot of spaces in our world. It is, you know and in some ways though that darkness also opens up a lot of possibilities to start with ourselves and work with others and not make assumptions, and just give thanks for any little bit of grace or light that comes into our day. I think as I’ve progressed in the years, I’ve actually become happier because I realize there is so little in my direct control in except for how I show up that I can control. And that does have a power to help others, or it helps sounds condescending. It just that presence, like I was saying is attitude. And that’s kind of seeing myself kind of just shrunk down to this little tiny entity that has some tiny degree of, of influence even that, I think Rumi, the poet said something like “the whole universe is in you” or something like that. I don’t remember the exact words, but I love that notion that within this little microcosm that I call self is actually the full universe. So I’ll start here, I’ll start with me. And I’ll start by being joyful and loving and strong all at once. I can be all those things at once.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yes, you can. Well, good Colleen, thank you so much for your grace and for your light today. I really appreciate you. I look forward to us collaborating on other stuff, You know?
Colleen Kirtland:
Yes, I know it’s been way too long, Dr. Dave, and I know you moved away from the Southern California area, the five Saturdays was also super fun and whatever happens, I’m always happy that I know there’s so many different points of light everywhere. And it, it reminds me of this other nonprofit that my husband and I support called the Kids Singers is also a similar demographic in Orange County. They always end every concert with This Little Light of Mine. “This little light of mine am going to let it shine.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Love the song.
Colleen Kirtland:
Am going to let it shine.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Yes love that song.
Colleen Kirtland:
And I just love that, because it makes me happy. I’m still a kid in that sense.
Dr. Dave Cornelius:
Thank you, Colleen. Thank you for listening to the NA with Dr. Dave podcast. I hope this learning experience would also prompt you to take and seek more and discover how you can contribute to positive experiences for bipoc and non bipoc lives. It really doesn’t take much, all what we have to do is to tap into our own humanity.
And I just want to say the music that you’re going to hear, and this podcast was written by my niece, Kayanna Brow-Hendrickson.
The podcast is copyright 2021 by KnolShare.org and Dr. Dave Cornelius.
So I would like to say until next time, be well, stay safe and connect soon. Thanks, Colleen.
Colleen Kirtland:
You’re welcome.
