Dr. Dave:
Say hello and welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. This is Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. We want to talk about the social justice definition and social justice is the view that everyone deserves equal economic, political and social rights and opportunities. We want to think that we’re opening doors of access and opportunity to everyone, particularly those in greatest needs. So when we think of some of the formal definition, we’re talking what equal rights, equal opportunities and equal treatments. So in short, social justice means equal rights and equitable opportunities for all.
Today, our conversation is with Nicole Spence-Goon. And I hope I didn’t screw that up too badly, but did I do say that right?
Nicole:
Perfect. Perfect.
Dr. Dave:
All right. So let’s just kick off. We always like to kick off with an elevator pitch about Nicole and your superhero persona.
Nicole:
All right. So about Nicole. I can put it in categories of work, family, play, and work super here and there a little bit. I’m currently an Agile coach at Excella and within Excella, I am part of their IDEA team. That’s their version of DI. They just rearrange the letter so we could have IDEA, but same thing. And I’ve been working in software development for over 20 years in a lot of different roles.
I started as a developer, did the tester role, did BA role. I managed to find my way into the Agile space about 10 years ago. I just gravitated towards it because at the time when I was in my career, I was looking for something more, but I didn’t know what more was. The project that I happened to be on at the time started talking about Agile and I’m like, okay. We’re going to do this Agile thing. I’m like, okay. I’m game. But I don’t know what it is. I found that as we were meddling our way through, there was something really different here that focused on something more than just the work. That’s what intrigued me in getting in the Agile space. I’ve been gung-ho ever since. Always trying to learn more in the Agile space, as well as being active in the community.
As for family, I was born in Jamaica and I was raised partly in Canada. So I’m a Jam-Can person. So, I went back and forth a lot, but that doesn’t mean I like cold. I did not like winter. I still don’t like winter. No. Winter is never going to be for me. But, as far as a superhero persona, I think what I gravitate to is transforming, networking into community building. I never really liked the whole term or activity of networking, but I felt like it was better to start with what we have in common and then build relationships as opposed to like making it transactional. What can you do for me? And I can do for you, but really connecting people.
Dr. Dave:
That’s beautiful. So from Jamaica. That means you are a Yardie.
Nicole:
Yes. But I’m from country, since I’m not from Kingston.
Dr. Dave:
Yardie. 20 years ago, I don’t know, maybe you started when your, what 15.
Nicole:
Yeah. We’ll go with that. Lets go with that number.
Dr. Dave:
Yeah. OK. There you go. So, let’s talk about how does social justice, social justice challenges show up for you in your experience as an Agile coach and also as a woman of color?
Nicole:
Yeah. I’m reflecting on my experiences. I feel like I could come from it in terms of, from one aspect of treatment, right. Not equal treatment. This is something from the woman perspective of not being heard. Where I’ve been in situations, making contributions, and sharing ideas, and then somebody else shares the same idea. I just said that. What is happening here? Do you not see me here? You know? Those kinds of things.
Also opportunity, right? But opportunity, not necessarily in terms of purely job opportunities, but thinking about, from a larger space of your abilities, not being, or your abilities being discounted. For example, I was submitting to a conference and, they’re looking for new voices. So I’m like, great. This is great for me. They have, they’re providing like shepherds or mentors or whatever you want to call it. I’m sharing my ideas and they’re like, yeah, this might be good for lightning talk, but not for an actual talk for the conference. But, the fortunate thing for me was at the time I had a lot of other folks in my circle who could provide other input and perspectives so that I wouldn’t take that as gospel. So, that’s where the whole community comes in. Community is very important for support.
But, there’s one other thing that is not as obvious. And it’s actually something, not something happening to me, but something about me bringing myself to work. Like whole self. People talk about bringing your whole self to work. And there’s a lot of things to unlearn, right? Because you are set, you’re taught certain things and how you should operate in a work environment about being professional. Which can sometimes, at least for me, come off as being detached. Which is not great in an Agile environment where you’re trying to build trust and build up teams. There’s also some things on my side that I had to unlearn in that perspective and be okay with bringing my whole self to work.
Dr. Dave:
Yeah. It’s nothing like people not recognizing that you are a thought leader in this space.
Nicole:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Dave:
Hard stuff.
Nicole:
Yes.
Dr. Dave:
So what is it like when you are in a conversation about diversity, equity inclusion, and do you feel sometimes that people speak to you in that conversation as a victim?
Nicole:
I don’t necessarily feel like a victim. I feel more like there’s a burden. So, really when I’m thinking about it, when I’m saying that I’m like reflecting back to last year, when George Floyd was murdered and everybody was jumping on the train about being supportive to the black community and really trying to understand where it’s like, okay, you want to be supportive, but don’t be supportive by asking me to do the work for you. Right?
Dr. Dave:
Right.
Nicole:
If you’re trying to help, what should I do? I was like, well, go do some research to understand this experience. I cannot tell you everything. Right? And so that’s where I felt like, I don’t see myself as a victim. I’m not a victim. But I also don’t need to the burden of your being uncomfortable.
Dr. Dave:
So, I just want to clarify the question. It’s not you being a victim, but is people treating you like a victim? I think there’s a distinction between the two. What do you think?
Nicole:
I don’t feel for the most part that I am treated like a victim. I think that people are, at least the people that I’m interacting with, are looking to be more aware, if that’s the right word, and they just don’t know how to do it. So sometimes, it might be feeling like, oh, they’re doing me a favor. I’m like, no, you’re not doing me any favors. I’m totally capable here. I got here just like you did. But at the same time, if someone is willing to share something with me, I will take it so that I can share it with others. So, that may be coming from a place of guilt on their behalf, on their behalf, but I’m not accepting it in that way. I’m trying to use it in a positive perspective?
Dr. Dave:
Totally understand.
So let’s talk about the economic impact of social injustice in your career. What has that been like? Or, has it even been anything?
Nicole:
Well, it appears in different ways that I try and looking back, I’m trying to pinpoint, right. So, I think the most important way has been lack of reflective mentorship because mentorship and sponsorship, and those are the things that can help propel you forward in your career. The lack of it won’t necessarily keep you back, but it kind of keeps you stationary, without having that kind of support. I felt like, I didn’t see a lot of people who looked like me, who would have similar stories to engage with as a mentor, initially. When I entered into really first in IT, because when I was in school, after I got through second year, I stopped seeing black people. There weren’t any black people in any of my classes. I’ll date, myself with Unix and C plus and stuff like that. I didn’t see anybody. It makes it harder for you to advance as quickly as some folks, without having that kind of support.
Then one of the obvious things that I point out a lot is about lack of sponsorship, because really there is a big difference between mentorship and sponsorship, and sponsorship is where you can really propel forward. I feel like that’s kind of the key for me where that lack of sponsorship and mentorship earlier on in my career had an impact in me not moving as fast as I would probably like.q
Dr. Dave:
I could completely relate. There’s nothing like being in a computer science lab late at night, oh, wow. I’m the only one there. Right. I know the experience well.
Nicole:
Yeah.
Dr. Dave:
Yeah. So let’s talk about you, Nicole, in terms of some of the actions that you have personally taken to improve opportunities for black, indigenous, and people of color, BICOP, in the Agile community.
Nicole:
From my motivation, especially since the lens of black experiences has widened since last year, I have been motivated to focus on black representation in thought leadership specifically in the Agile community. I figured where can I make the most impact? Where can lend my talents the most? That is kind of where I focused my lens. Part of it has become from being involved in Agile in Color initiative, that just was born last year, where we focus on mentoring and coaching, and specifically for the black community in Agile, and also providing a mechanism to, for right now that I’m focusing on is providing a mechanism for giving out conference passes, because access is also an issue, right? Really, just about sharing stories and our perspectives. So by getting with great folks like you and having this platform for other people to hear us and see us, as well as individual color, we’re also sharing stories about black from black Agileists, who are thought leaders in the agile community. Brandon Reins is one person I just recently talked to. That’s from Agile and color.
Another part and another place that I’m active is as an organizer for the DC women in Agile, and I’m using my space and my influence there to get more black female voices in the rotation. We had some diversity in our speakers, but I noticed there was a particularly limited mix of black voices there. And so I’m pushing to get more black voices in that platform and provide it as a platform for new speakers to launch their voice. That’s where I’m lending my hand.
Dr. Dave:
You’re busy.
Nicole:
Just a little bit.
Dr. Dave:
Just a little bit. Good. Yeah, no, I look forward to partnership with Agile in Color and Agile for Humanity. As you guys definitely come and partner with us for our conference and join black history month. That should be fun.
Nicole:
Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Dave:
Yeah. So let’s talk about if you want to see change between how BIPOC and non BIPOC individuals integrate an agile community, what kind of significant changes would you like to see?
Nicole:
There are a couple of different ways I can think of.
One, that I think would be an easy lift, is more partnerships. By partnerships, I mean, just simply more people co-presenting at conferences, right? So one great way and one way that I was able to share my voice in the conference circuit was by partnering with one of my non BIPOC colleagues at my company and on a presentation, because it’s just a great mechanism for having the different perspectives being shared on a national or even international stage. That’s just one way that you can create some partnerships between non BIPOC and BIPOC in the community.
The other thing, I’ll harp on it again, is about more sponsorships. You know, people who have the advantage using that leverage and influence to uplift what I call hidden gems, because that is a problem that’s prevalent where people who don’t look like the folks who have the power don’t necessarily get the seat at the table, because people gravitate towards people like them, who’ve had their same experiences and that kind of thing. So really kind of opening up their doors a little more to create more sponsorships. Honestly, I think for, at an individual level, just more vulnerability. Making that effort to engage with the BIPOC community.
One specific example that I can draw on is: one of my fellow core team members at Agile in Color, Matt Carlson. I met Matt from when we did the open space with Agile Alliance for increasing racial justice in Agile community. He’s been active ever since and has really demonstrated that for on our ability. And I appreciate that because I feel if more people did that, we could get to a better place.
Dr. Dave:
Yeah. Matt is awesome.
Nicole:
He is. He is awesome.
Dr. Dave:
Shout out as well. So let’s talk about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, the utopia. What would you love to see as a utopia, in that space?
Nicole:
Well, I’m going to focus. Cause the great utopia of diversity, equity, and inclusion is a lot. So I’m going to focus in the corporate setting and the utopia I see would be, there is no need for D-I-B. A D-I-B department at work at any company that everyone is being valued, just full stop. Period. Really focusing on making people more multidimensional instead of just putting them in one box. Right? Because if we do that, it would make it easier for us to connect with each other. We all, I’m sure we can all find something in common with people that we work with if we just get past the boxes. I would like to think the future to be less about diversity and more about a mosaic, right? Because diversity is just really touching on one piece that people’s see. The physical differences. But, really about making more emotional connections, because it’s like, I’m not just black. I’m a woman. I’m a mother. I’m a sister. I’ve lived in these different places and there’s so many different dimensions to me other than just being a black woman, that we can connect on with somebody who’s not black or who’s not a woman. I think it’s really about looking at people more as a mosaic, because we all bring that when we come to work or whatever space we’re in. We’re all a mosaic.
Then ultimately about what I would like to see in this utopia is not restricting BIPOC people to the head of the ‘I’ in what company X, Y, Z as the only leadership position that they can serve. Obviously, they have a specific experience that lends to that, but we are not limited to what we look like. We have a lot more great ideas and creative thoughts and innovative thoughts to share outside of just the eye. Given that opportunity in the utopia, we could make the color of leadership be truly reflective of the community in that organization.
Dr. Dave:
Wonderful.
Any final words for our audience before I close?
Nicole:
I feel like there’s an opportunity here to lift and grow others. I am offering myself to lift and grow others because I’ve been lifted up and I’ve been given opportunities by other folks. So, if you out there are in need of coaching or mentoring, please reach out to me or anyone in Agile in Color. You can reach out to me in LinkedIn, because we want to create that space where everyone is uplifted. That’s what I offer
Dr. Dave:
Nicole?
Nicole:
Yes.
Dr. Dave:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being courageous to have this conversation with me.
Nicole:
Well thank you for having me. I really appreciate you having me here.
Dr. Dave:
You’re welcome.
So in closing, I’d like to say thank you for listening to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. I hope this learning experience would also prompt you to take and seek more, and discover how you could contribute to the positive experiences for BIPOC lives. It really does not take much. All you need to do is to tap into your own humanity.
The music for this podcast, I’m obviously going to shout out my niece, Kayanna Brown-Hendrickson. Copyright 2021 KnolShare, Dr. Dave Cornelius.
And until next time be well, stay safe, and connect soon.
